wwp@yahoogroups.com:
Re: all in one
Alex Makienko 2008-May-28 13:22:00
Hi all,
My couple of cents:
Is the Globorama project interesting? Yes, it is. Most of us would be glad
to participate (of course if those guys will respect our rights), BUT...
(see all the discussion above). So the issue is - how to resolve the current
situation. Leave it as is? Definitely not. Too many people and institutions
were involved and too many of them were damaged seriously. I personally do
not see any other choice but to remove all illegally used content from the
Globorama project unconditionally BEFORE ANY NEGOTIATION IS STARTED. But
this will kill the Globorama project or at least may cause very serious
financial problems for them even without a claim from our community. Do they
agree with that? I doubt. I guess that they will fight until the last breath
to avoid doing that. They've already put themselves into the corner and now
there is no exit out of it but only to fight in the court and to win.
Otherwise their careers and reputation might be destroyed. So, folks, get
ready to fight...
Yuv, basically I agree with everything you wrote and would be glad if a
compromise might be found, but I am not very optimistic about the result. I
would be happy if any acceptable for both sides solution is proposed, but I
cannot see any. However I will support any efforts to resolve this issue out
of the court but only after all illegally used content is removed from the
Globorama project. This, in my strong opinion, should be the starting point
of any negotiations, any other solution and condition will mean that we turn
on a green light for any theft in the future.
My opinion does not depend on if they use my images or not.
Cheers,
Alex
PS: And I repeat my previous suggestion to obtain much more clear and
documented evidences of copyright infringements BEFORE we start doing
anything. Otherwise we lose.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Yuval Levy
To: #removed#
Sent: May 27, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: all in one
I'm back, and I'll put all of my thoughts in one message. Apology if I
do not address most individual comments - I do summarize from them and I
thank everybody who contributed. We need to stay focused and I need to
stay concise. I'll try :-)
FREE CHOICE
We are a community, but we are first and foremost individuals, each
entitled to their own decisions about their artwork. I will not try to
convince anybody to join my course of action. I respect each and every
one of you, whatever choice you make, and I expect you to respect my choice.
NO GREED
As far as I am concerned, Uri is right: I am not trying to destroy them.
I don't like the fantasizing of multi-million dollar lawsuit and "GOOD
compensation". If anybody does, I'm not with him.
OBJECTIVE
My stated objective is to reach an out-of-court settlement in mutual
respect and agreement. I'll consider going to court only after having
explored all other possible venues to an agreement.
MEANS
The first means is direct negotiations. Pressure means such as the media
or the law can be prepared in the background, but before applying any
such pressure means I want a thorough and complete reflection, because
it is easy to pull the trigger but there is no way back. Of course I
can't control what others do, and a media campaign or an outright law
suit may close the door to a friendly settlement. I'll have to live with
that uncertainty, because it is not under my control. Probably not even
under ZKM's control: they can try to defuse the timebomb they set, but I
am not sure if they will be able or willing to meet some of the demands
I've read here.
OPENNESS
There is nothing wrong with discussing strategy in the open. A winning
strategy is one that succeeds even when the opponent knows about it;
execution is what counts, and I intend to execute professionally.
Moreover, we have nothing to hide! If before hitting the "send" button
you feel there is something in your message that should not be public
knowledge, think again. You may find that there is something better you
did not think of yet.
I have invited the people from ZKM to join this group and discuss in the
open. So far they seem to prefer to stay out, and negotiate with
individuals. "divide and conquer"? maybe. Not very effective in this
situation: the theft of a single artwork from the WWP is enough to get
them sentenced. Egoistically speaking I am happy for every artist that
does give them permission and settles for nothing, because it means that
there is more budget left for the settlement with those that do not
accept to be treated like that. I am convinced that the case for
copyright violation is rock-solid and I am ready to go to court to prove
it, even if I have to do it alone. I am convinced that reason will
prevail, that ZKM will negotiate, will admit to its sins, will take
appropriate corrective actions, and maybe will also compensate the damage.
EMOTIONS
There are a lot of emotions around. That's understandable. Your rights
have been infringed. Yes, it makes you angry! It makes me angry! But it
is no reason to panic or become loud, and it is no reason to be nasty to
each other.
RESEARCH
Thanks to everybody for the bits and pieces of research that have been
cumulated on the list. KEEP THEM COMING. Please post facts or
hypothesis. It is not the time for jokes. Don't worry about re-posting
things that may already be known: better have the information twice than
not having it at all.
OPINIONS
Each individual is entitled to her/his own opinion. I respectfully
disagree with those that see a multi-million dollar lawsuit as next
step, and I respectfully disagree with those who decide that this is not
serious and give permission to ZKM to use their art. It is your opinion,
I won't try to change it.
PROOF OF THEFT
John Riley had the good idea to look at the server's log - if they are
still there. The theft is likely to have happened more than a year ago.
Markus: can you tell us what logs are available on the server and if
there is any useful information about the theft?
In principle Dave is right: our claim, during the negotiations and (if
we have to) in court is that they stole whole WWP events. We have enough
material to prove this claim, and the exhibition was public. Leave them
the burden of proving a potentially lesser extent.
QUANTITIES
Dave, thanks for the initial estimates. Before doing a manual count -
Markus, can you pull out a statistic from the server, how many entries
per event, divided in the categories:
1. panos with full screen
2. panos without full screen
3. objectVR
I doubt they used objectVR and I doubt they used entries that did not
have full screen.
Also, on second thoughts, those quantities are irrelevant. I'll make a
claim of breach for my artworks, and for the artwork of those who sign
up to the PLAN.
CONTACT
This is a community. If each of us would contact four people, and they
would contact four others, we should get everybody who's still alive on
board.
Look on the WWP map for three people in your neighborhood. Look also for
one person far away that you had sympathy for / contact with in the
past. Update your contact with them. Use the phone book, google,
whatever it takes to get back in touch with them. Invite them for a
coffee, and at the same time tell them what is going on and to do the
same as you do.
If we get this down to one or two levels, we should be safely covered -
with the added benefit of renewing community bonds.
STRATEGY
Thanks Francis Fougere for sharing your experience with copyright
breach. We need to investigate small claims proceeds in Germany. And
this avenue will most likely be available to Germans only, but it will
set a precedent I am sure ZKM will want to avoid.
MONEY
I'm not greedy. First I expect this thing to cost money. Lawyers don't
work for free. Maybe, in the end, there will be some money. Will it be
enough to cover the cost? I don't know. Will there be something left
over? I don't know. This is not the time to speculate on how much; nor
the time to discuss how to use it. There are plenty of opinions, and
each artists will determine what happens with his share in due course.
Again: I respect those that have a different ideas than me.
OPPORTUNITY
Caroling as usual sees beyond the obvious. There are plenty of
opportunities here *if* we get to a negotiating table with a partner
that actually listens and respect the artists. Carl has also mentioned
some good points where this can turn into a win-win relationship.
With the information currently available to me on the technology I doubt
the technical concept of the Globorama will stand comparison with
competing technologies I have seen in the past. But again: this is not
the time to discuss this, and I respect opinions different than mines.
THE PLAN
So here is the plan as I see it - composite of the many good advices
that have been shared here:
0. revoke permission if it has already been granted, or notify ZKM that
I am aware of their theft and ask them to stop it.
1. work out a price based on the different pricing methods available out
there.
2. add on top of that a 400% extra for the breach
3. have a German WWP contributor send to ZKM an invoice, with that
price, multiplied by his/her WWP contributions.
4. go through the usual process until either payment arrives or
negotiation is started, or it is time to go to small claims court.
5.a. if payment arrives, other invoices will follow (see 6).
5.b. if serious negotiations starts on the basis of the first invoice,
we reached the first objective: NEGOTIATIONS
5.c. if we have to go to small claims court, we'll win that one and we
will have a precedent for other invoices to follow, though maybe the
precedent will motivate them to negotiate.
6. for further invoices, those artists from abroad that participate in
the plan will assign the rights to their work for Germany to a local
representative. The local representative will have reason to send
invoices to ZKM.
NEGOTIATIONS
So the objective is to reach an out-of-court settlement, but what will
be the content of that settlement? The nature of negotiations is that
they are unpredictable, so this is just a tentative list of priorities
at best:
1. ZKM will have to stop and revert the theft completely, take
corrective action. I would expect a formal, written and public apology
to all artists whose work has been denaturated, taken out of context,
stolen. Respect is the first thing we demand.
2. This blunder of them is an opportunity to educate the general public
about copyright law. The second thing I would demand is for them to go
public with the story, admitting to their mistake, accounting for how
they corrected them and with a bottom line: theft does not pay.
3. Once mutual respect is established, there may be opportunities to set
up a partnership on a healthy, legitimate basis. After all, we are in
very much related fields. It's too early for that, though. Currently I
feel a lot of anger in the community at what ZKM did, and they will have
to dissipate that anger with appropriate corrective action first.
4. Last but not least, some sort of monetary compensation for the damage.
I don't want to deliberate further - it is in the nature of negotiations
that not everything can be predicted, but my priorities are those listed
above.
To achieve them, I intend to work together with the "panel" of people
proposed. Willy, Carl, Hans, Milko, Caroling - if they want to work with me.
To this purpose I have set up a Google Group at
<http://groups.google.com/group/zkm-friends/>
Please join only if you
* subscribe to the above PLAN
* agree with the NEGOTIATION priorities
* accept the principles stated above, in particular the principle that
each individual artist is entitled to decide upon her/his artwork
Unless you have already done so, upon joining you will be asked to:
* revoke ZKM's permission to use your arts if such permission was
already granted
* notify ZKM that you are aware of the theft, ask them to stop it and
reserve yourself the right for legal action
* agree that as long as you are a member of the group you do not
negotiate separately or through other avenues with ZKM. You can always
quit the group, but doing the two things at the same time would be
inappropriate.
I intend this to be my last message on the topic here on the WWP main
list. I may give an update from time to time, but I do not want people
to have the impression that I am trying to persuade them to join me. No
spam-marketing.
May reason and justice prevail.
<http://groups.google.com/group/zkm-friends/>
Yuv
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