wwp@yahoogroups.com:
Re: all in one
AYRTON 2008-May-28 03:35:00
COUNT on ME Yuv !I completely agree with ALL your points.
I'm signing to the new group right now.
And I hope
Milko, Carl, Hans, Carl, Caroling and Willy,
will accept to be leading the negotiations or whatever takes to have a nice
end on this story.
Cheers
AYRTON
+55 21 9982 6313
On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Yuval Levy <#removed#> wrote:
> I'm back, and I'll put all of my thoughts in one message. Apology if I
> do not address most individual comments - I do summarize from them and I
> thank everybody who contributed. We need to stay focused and I need to
> stay concise. I'll try :-)
>
>
> FREE CHOICE
>
> We are a community, but we are first and foremost individuals, each
> entitled to their own decisions about their artwork. I will not try to
> convince anybody to join my course of action. I respect each and every
> one of you, whatever choice you make, and I expect you to respect my
> choice.
>
>
> NO GREED
>
> As far as I am concerned, Uri is right: I am not trying to destroy them.
> I don't like the fantasizing of multi-million dollar lawsuit and "GOOD
> compensation". If anybody does, I'm not with him.
>
>
> OBJECTIVE
>
> My stated objective is to reach an out-of-court settlement in mutual
> respect and agreement. I'll consider going to court only after having
> explored all other possible venues to an agreement.
>
>
> MEANS
>
> The first means is direct negotiations. Pressure means such as the media
> or the law can be prepared in the background, but before applying any
> such pressure means I want a thorough and complete reflection, because
> it is easy to pull the trigger but there is no way back. Of course I
> can't control what others do, and a media campaign or an outright law
> suit may close the door to a friendly settlement. I'll have to live with
> that uncertainty, because it is not under my control. Probably not even
> under ZKM's control: they can try to defuse the timebomb they set, but I
> am not sure if they will be able or willing to meet some of the demands
> I've read here.
>
>
> OPENNESS
>
> There is nothing wrong with discussing strategy in the open. A winning
> strategy is one that succeeds even when the opponent knows about it;
> execution is what counts, and I intend to execute professionally.
>
> Moreover, we have nothing to hide! If before hitting the "send" button
> you feel there is something in your message that should not be public
> knowledge, think again. You may find that there is something better you
> did not think of yet.
>
> I have invited the people from ZKM to join this group and discuss in the
> open. So far they seem to prefer to stay out, and negotiate with
> individuals. "divide and conquer"? maybe. Not very effective in this
> situation: the theft of a single artwork from the WWP is enough to get
> them sentenced. Egoistically speaking I am happy for every artist that
> does give them permission and settles for nothing, because it means that
> there is more budget left for the settlement with those that do not
> accept to be treated like that. I am convinced that the case for
> copyright violation is rock-solid and I am ready to go to court to prove
> it, even if I have to do it alone. I am convinced that reason will
> prevail, that ZKM will negotiate, will admit to its sins, will take
> appropriate corrective actions, and maybe will also compensate the damage.
>
>
> EMOTIONS
>
> There are a lot of emotions around. That's understandable. Your rights
> have been infringed. Yes, it makes you angry! It makes me angry! But it
> is no reason to panic or become loud, and it is no reason to be nasty to
> each other.
>
>
> RESEARCH
>
> Thanks to everybody for the bits and pieces of research that have been
> cumulated on the list. KEEP THEM COMING. Please post facts or
> hypothesis. It is not the time for jokes. Don't worry about re-posting
> things that may already be known: better have the information twice than
> not having it at all.
>
> OPINIONS
>
> Each individual is entitled to her/his own opinion. I respectfully
> disagree with those that see a multi-million dollar lawsuit as next
> step, and I respectfully disagree with those who decide that this is not
> serious and give permission to ZKM to use their art. It is your opinion,
> I won't try to change it.
>
>
> PROOF OF THEFT
>
> John Riley had the good idea to look at the server's log - if they are
> still there. The theft is likely to have happened more than a year ago.
>
> Markus: can you tell us what logs are available on the server and if
> there is any useful information about the theft?
>
> In principle Dave is right: our claim, during the negotiations and (if
> we have to) in court is that they stole whole WWP events. We have enough
> material to prove this claim, and the exhibition was public. Leave them
> the burden of proving a potentially lesser extent.
>
>
> QUANTITIES
>
> Dave, thanks for the initial estimates. Before doing a manual count -
> Markus, can you pull out a statistic from the server, how many entries
> per event, divided in the categories:
> 1. panos with full screen
> 2. panos without full screen
> 3. objectVR
>
> I doubt they used objectVR and I doubt they used entries that did not
> have full screen.
>
> Also, on second thoughts, those quantities are irrelevant. I'll make a
> claim of breach for my artworks, and for the artwork of those who sign
> up to the PLAN.
>
>
> CONTACT
>
> This is a community. If each of us would contact four people, and they
> would contact four others, we should get everybody who's still alive on
> board.
>
> Look on the WWP map for three people in your neighborhood. Look also for
> one person far away that you had sympathy for / contact with in the
> past. Update your contact with them. Use the phone book, google,
> whatever it takes to get back in touch with them. Invite them for a
> coffee, and at the same time tell them what is going on and to do the
> same as you do.
>
> If we get this down to one or two levels, we should be safely covered -
> with the added benefit of renewing community bonds.
>
>
> STRATEGY
>
> Thanks Francis Fougere for sharing your experience with copyright
> breach. We need to investigate small claims proceeds in Germany. And
> this avenue will most likely be available to Germans only, but it will
> set a precedent I am sure ZKM will want to avoid.
>
>
> MONEY
>
> I'm not greedy. First I expect this thing to cost money. Lawyers don't
> work for free. Maybe, in the end, there will be some money. Will it be
> enough to cover the cost? I don't know. Will there be something left
> over? I don't know. This is not the time to speculate on how much; nor
> the time to discuss how to use it. There are plenty of opinions, and
> each artists will determine what happens with his share in due course.
> Again: I respect those that have a different ideas than me.
>
>
> OPPORTUNITY
>
> Caroling as usual sees beyond the obvious. There are plenty of
> opportunities here *if* we get to a negotiating table with a partner
> that actually listens and respect the artists. Carl has also mentioned
> some good points where this can turn into a win-win relationship.
>
> With the information currently available to me on the technology I doubt
> the technical concept of the Globorama will stand comparison with
> competing technologies I have seen in the past. But again: this is not
> the time to discuss this, and I respect opinions different than mines.
>
>
> THE PLAN
>
> So here is the plan as I see it - composite of the many good advices
> that have been shared here:
>
> 0. revoke permission if it has already been granted, or notify ZKM that
> I am aware of their theft and ask them to stop it.
> 1. work out a price based on the different pricing methods available out
> there.
> 2. add on top of that a 400% extra for the breach
> 3. have a German WWP contributor send to ZKM an invoice, with that
> price, multiplied by his/her WWP contributions.
> 4. go through the usual process until either payment arrives or
> negotiation is started, or it is time to go to small claims court.
> 5.a. if payment arrives, other invoices will follow (see 6).
> 5.b. if serious negotiations starts on the basis of the first invoice,
> we reached the first objective: NEGOTIATIONS
> 5.c. if we have to go to small claims court, we'll win that one and we
> will have a precedent for other invoices to follow, though maybe the
> precedent will motivate them to negotiate.
> 6. for further invoices, those artists from abroad that participate in
> the plan will assign the rights to their work for Germany to a local
> representative. The local representative will have reason to send
> invoices to ZKM.
>
>
> NEGOTIATIONS
>
> So the objective is to reach an out-of-court settlement, but what will
> be the content of that settlement? The nature of negotiations is that
> they are unpredictable, so this is just a tentative list of priorities
> at best:
>
> 1. ZKM will have to stop and revert the theft completely, take
> corrective action. I would expect a formal, written and public apology
> to all artists whose work has been denaturated, taken out of context,
> stolen. Respect is the first thing we demand.
>
> 2. This blunder of them is an opportunity to educate the general public
> about copyright law. The second thing I would demand is for them to go
> public with the story, admitting to their mistake, accounting for how
> they corrected them and with a bottom line: theft does not pay.
>
> 3. Once mutual respect is established, there may be opportunities to set
> up a partnership on a healthy, legitimate basis. After all, we are in
> very much related fields. It's too early for that, though. Currently I
> feel a lot of anger in the community at what ZKM did, and they will have
> to dissipate that anger with appropriate corrective action first.
>
> 4. Last but not least, some sort of monetary compensation for the damage.
>
> I don't want to deliberate further - it is in the nature of negotiations
> that not everything can be predicted, but my priorities are those listed
> above.
>
> To achieve them, I intend to work together with the "panel" of people
> proposed. Willy, Carl, Hans, Milko, Caroling - if they want to work with
> me.
>
> To this purpose I have set up a Google Group at
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/zkm-friends/>
>
> Please join only if you
> * subscribe to the above PLAN
> * agree with the NEGOTIATION priorities
> * accept the principles stated above, in particular the principle that
> each individual artist is entitled to decide upon her/his artwork
>
> Unless you have already done so, upon joining you will be asked to:
> * revoke ZKM's permission to use your arts if such permission was
> already granted
> * notify ZKM that you are aware of the theft, ask them to stop it and
> reserve yourself the right for legal action
> * agree that as long as you are a member of the group you do not
> negotiate separately or through other avenues with ZKM. You can always
> quit the group, but doing the two things at the same time would be
> inappropriate.
>
> I intend this to be my last message on the topic here on the WWP main
> list. I may give an update from time to time, but I do not want people
> to have the impression that I am trying to persuade them to join me. No
> spam-marketing.
>
> May reason and justice prevail.
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/zkm-friends/>
>
> Yuv
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------
> The World-Wide Panorama
>
> For more information:
> -Visit the web site at http://GeoImages.Berkeley.edu/wwp.htmlYahoo! Groups
> Links
>
>
>
>
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